Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Digitally Curious, a podcast to help you navigate the future of AI and beyond. Your host is world-renowned futurist and author of Digitally Curious, Andrew Grill. Andrew's guests will help you become more curious about the latest tech and what's just around the corner.

Speaker 2: 0:22

Today's guest is Arvind Ravishankar, general Manager Think Tank and Tech Strategy at Wipro. He joined Wipro at the beginning of 2023 and has founded and built the Think Tank at Lab45. He works at the intersection of business technology, customers and the environment, specialising in strategic vision and planning. Over the last decade, he's helped C-suite executives and business leaders of Fortune 500 companies, start-ups and non and nonprofits uncover their strategic vision. Welcome, arvind. Thank you, andrew.

Speaker 3: 0:51

So good to be here.

Speaker 2: 0:52

Now it's probably fitting to say that I have raced across town from the AI Summit London to be with you here today. I heard some very interesting speakers from large corporates. Perhaps you could tell us a little bit more about the think tank and Lab45.

Speaker 3: 1:04

corporates. Perhaps you could tell us a little bit more about the think tank and Lab45. So I'll start with Lab45, the parent organization. So Lab45 is Wipro's innovation lab. So think of it similar to like Lab126 at Amazon, where it has a broad charter to look at emerging technologies, existing technologies and think about new products, new services and new ways for Wipro to add value in the world. Right, that's the broader charter of Lab45. And within Lab45, think Tank specifically focuses on helping our customers figure out what those emerging technologies are. Where do you deploy it? What sort of business models do you have to drive you deploy it? What sort of business models do you have to drive? And to make this even more real, what we do in the think tank is, along with those insights and strategic recommendations, we also have a startup accelerator where we can pair emerging startups in those new technology areas with our customers or interested folks so that these strategies now become actionable immediately. So quite excited about what we're doing here and thank you for the opportunity to talk about it.

Speaker 2: 2:15

Is there a specific vision you have for the think tank, our?

Speaker 3: 2:18

vision is to inspire, educate and enable change leaders in enterprises. So the reason why we chose change leaders as our customer is because we believe that in the next decade, leadership is going to drastically change, and the type of leaders you're going to see emerge are ones that are deeply focused and rooted in emerging tech, but also have this broader, altruistic view of society and the planet, and so those are the type of leaders we cater to, and so that's our vision.

Speaker 2: 2:57

How would you describe a change leader, and why do you think they're important for humanity?

Speaker 3: 3:02

Wow, I love the second part of the question. Why are they important for humanity? You know, andrew, I think you know when you look at the evolution of business and leaders in business. Leaders in business have not just matured in terms of understanding of the business models and how to make money, but over a span of time, leaders have also matured in terms of the importance they place on customers, the society and the planet overall. Right, and this has been growing.

Speaker 3: 3:35

So in the 1900s, even up to the late 70s, being able to make a lot of money was sort of the pinnacle of a business leader, right. And then after that, in the 80s, 90s, 2000 timeframe technology started playing a really important role. So a business leader was someone who was able to make money using technology. Right, and we know a lot of those business leaders today. In the last decade, there's a huge movement towards customer experience, and so in the last decade, business leaders have not just focused on making money using technology, but they focus a lot on customer experience, and we believe that in this next decade, business leaders will have to equally focus on sustainability. So sustainability and the planet cannot be an afterthought in your decisions. It's got to be in the forefront of your decision making and if you see leaders like Tim Cook, that's exactly what they're doing right In decisions Apple's making. Sustainability is front, center and core. So that's who we think change leaders are people who have evolved to have those four disciplines within their decision-making process.

Speaker 2: 4:47

So part of the initiatives you've got at the Think Tank is this new podcast, and one of the reasons we're talking is that I appeared on one of your episodes of the podcast you've called Unpacked. First of all, why did you call it Unpacked and how does the podcast fit into Wipro's broader vision?

Speaker 3: 5:03

These change leaders we speak about.

Speaker 3: 5:06

One of the things we do believe and actually this is true for every leader today is that if you have to succeed in today's world, your understanding of technology has to be more than surface level.

Speaker 3: 5:17

You need to understand it at first principles, because you're going to be making really important decisions, and especially in the world of AI, where the technology could at some point have the ability to make decisions for us. Unlike other technologies, ai could be autonomous. It could be something with agency, and so it's really important for a business leader to understand the technology. It's really important for a business leader to understand the technology, and so Unpacked is designed to unpack technical topics, but in a business context, right. So we unpack it from its fundamentals, but we elevate it to why that's relevant for a business leader. So that's why we think we're a little different from other podcasts out there, where it's not about the technology purely or the business, but it's the connection between those fundamentals of technology and what it means to business, and that's why it's called Unpacked. We unpack many different topics and relate it back to business.

Speaker 2: 6:15

Now you said a phrase in that last section that pricked my ears up first principles. You know where I'm going with this. We're both engineers. We were both taught in our first engineering session probably Engineering 101, to think from first principles. Now, for our audience who are not engineers, could you explain what it means to think from first principles, how you apply in your business and what's the benefit of being able to think about things from the first principles?

Speaker 3: 6:40

Even before my engineering degree. I have to thank my parents for this, because they're the ones who instilled first principles thinking in me. Right, and that's where I learned the concept. The way I was taught was the same using first principles. So first principles, essentially, is to go down to the fundamentals of any topic and understand what the assumptions and the facts are right. In any given subject that you learn, there are a set of facts and there are a set of assumptions. And when you go down to first principle and understand the facts, you can then decide if you want to change the assumptions right. So, for example, if any technology today, when you apply the technology in your business, there are a set of assumptions which help you apply the technology.

Speaker 3: 7:29

Now, if you purely understand the technology only at the assumption level and try to replicate how it's being applied somewhere else into your own business, the odds are that you're not going to be very successful. But if you understand the technology from its first principles what is it capable of, what is it not capable of? Why has this technology evolved to be what it is Then you can apply it anywhere in business and make the right decisions, and so we've been applying this to most of our podcasts. We take a particular topic and we break it down to those first principles of what are the facts, what are the myths, what are the things you need to understand so that you can apply it anywhere you want.

Speaker 3: 8:13

And you know I think to a large degree, even if you ask me for an example today, a relevant example when you look at Elon Musk and when you read his bio. Look at Elon Musk and when you read his biography on SpaceX and what he's done, you know he learned what a rocket is from first principles. That's how he learned that, hey, I can possibly redesign this right and I can make reusable rockets. If not for that first principles learning, spacex would not exist. So I think it's a very powerful tool.

Speaker 2: 8:46

You know you triggered a memory there. I thought I had learned first principles at university but like you, it was my parents, my father, ron. I'll give you a quick example. In fact I put it in my book Digitally Curious. We sat down one day I think I was six years old, and we got some little lights, three volt lamps, in a screw. You screw the lamps in and they had terminals on either side. So we fixed the battery, we connected them in parallel and they glowed quite brightly. Then we collected them in series and they were dim and my father said do you know why that is? And he explained why it was. And I remember I had a little log book and I wrote down the output of the experiment. And they were in parallel. They glowed brightly, series they glowed less brightly and explained why. And at six years old I now realize that dad was training me about first principles.

Speaker 2: 9:27

And so in later life an example that may be relevant to some of our listeners the Wi-Fi is not working. I'm the one that always people turn to and they say, andrew, why isn't the Wi-Fi working? So I go back to first principles. Go back to the router. Do we have internet coming in? Can you access a web page? All those sort of things that you and I take for granted but in later life, applying them in business. Why are we selling as many things as we did? Well, let's go back to have we looked at customer demand. Is the product ready for market? Is it priced properly? All those sorts of things I think you know. My engineering training has helped me get out some sticky situations, but also, I think, has shaped the way. I think A follow-up question do you instill critical thinking and first principles into your staff as well, people that you work with?

Speaker 3: 10:12

It's such a good question, andrew. You can't develop a think tank for the world if you're not applying that yourself. And I'll give you some examples of how in our think tank. Give you some examples of how, in our think tank, we encourage all of our staff to go down to first principles.

Speaker 3: 10:30

We have a debate program in our think tank where once a month we pick a topic and our team divides into two and both teams. What they do is they prepare an argument for and against the topic so that teaches them how to look at this from two different perspectives. And then at the debate they're told on a coin toss which side they're going to take. And both teams have to debate the topic for and against. And we debate based on data, we debate based on evidence, and so the critical. There's no better way to understand a subject than explain it to someone else or convince someone else of it, and so this is one way in which we do it.

Speaker 3: 11:13

We use a debate format. But even if you look at all the reports we write and when you look at all the podcasts we do any topic. We tend to start from the fundamentals and then work our way up. It's just how our team is designed up on what the world needs, what the assumptions are, and then we built the accelerator based on some fundamentals. So we use it everywhere in our own team. We use it everywhere in our own team.

Speaker 2: 11:46

I'm glad you're teaching your people how to debate. I started debating at an early age as well, probably around 10 years old, and I've actually debated things that I don't believe in. I've debated the other side and it's such a critical skill. I think why now I love public speaking, I'm so comfortable on stage is that at that early age I was putting an argument forward. In fact, I remember the first debate I was in I was in grade five, so around 10 years of age.

Speaker 2: 12:10

We were debating grade sevens. They were 12 years old, and our topic was that zoos were good for society. And the three of us I think it was Sue and Ben and I went to the zoo and basically did our research and had all the arguments there and we won. We won against the grade sevens and gosh, that was a good feeling, not that we just we won, but we could actually articulate an argument. And, as I said, I've had times where I've actually debated things I don't believe in. And if you can actually put that argument forward and have a compelling case, even if it's wrong, I think that's such an important skill and I think our younger generation should be taught about debating and critical thinking at an early age. Do you agree? I?

Speaker 3: 12:47

100% agree, and I think what it does is it does a couple of things. It also teaches you to some degree on how to be passionate about something, but also how to be distant enough so that you're not colored by your own opinion. Right, and you're using facts, because if you have to convince someone else or something, you can't convince them based on your emotional outbursts. You have to have facts, you have to have data, and so I think debate teaches you that. It teaches you how to be passionate but, at the same time, rational. And you know, there's another practice we've instilled, Andrew, which I think is important, which is we do knowledge sharing sessions. So once a week, one of our authors, one of the papers, one of our teams picks up something that they have learned or they're working on and they share it with the entire team. And the culture we have built is where anybody can challenge them. Anybody can open up a debate and it will not get personal right and we debate the idea. We don't debate the individual right, and that's really important, and so this has also helped these knowledge sharing sessions and this open culture. It also helps a person building their ideas, because to have someone push back helps you think more critically about that particular idea. So I think these things help and I think this should be, in fact.

Speaker 3: 14:17

I'll come back to your first question. I have to confess that the idea of the debate and starting this debate within our team, it came to me by talking to a 10-year-old. This is 10-year-old, really, really intelligent 10-year-old. I really love him and he's my friend's son and when we meet up we chat, we almost chat like two friends, and he was telling me about the debate club he's in at school and that got me thinking right. I'm like, wow, such a cool idea. And I came in and we ran a pilot in our think tank and it worked out great and so it's been amazing since then. So, yes, kids can teach you and kids do need to learn how to debate.

Speaker 2: 15:04

Now in the world at the moment there's so much uncertainty. We're not sure what's going on. 40% of the world are going to the polls. There could be change of government. We've got AI here. I think you and I are similar. We actually embrace change, we like change, we like entropy, a state of uncertainty. Why do you think it's so important to embrace change in a time of uncertainty? Is that not counterproductive?

Speaker 3: 15:24

The change itself is inevitable, right? I don't think. The interesting thing is that, as humans, I don't think we have a choice about change. The only choice we have is how we respond to that change. We really don't have a choice about the change itself. And we know that change is going to come, and it's going to come big in the next decade. So we can choose to embrace it or we can choose to push back. And you know there's a.

Speaker 3: 16:00

If you don't mind, I'm going to take a minute to go into philosophy. There's a philosopher who talks about the difference between a blade of grass and a large tree. So when a huge gust of wind blows, when it blows to the blade of grass, it does nothing to the blade of grass because of how flexible it is and how it moves Versus if there's a large gust of wind, the odds of a tree falling off are a lot higher because it resists that wind. Right Now, I think the forces around us in the world are always larger than who we are as a single human being, and so being adaptable and embracing change, I think, is a fundamental quality that's going to be even more important. So, yeah, if you don't embrace change, the odds that the wind will uproot you is very, very high.

Speaker 2: 16:50

Let's just go back to the podcast. The first series of the podcast is concentrated on generative AI. So, with Apple's recent launch of Apple Intelligence this week, do you see this as the catalyst for bringing AI to the masses and driving adoption, which will also make its way into the minds of senior leaders?

Speaker 3: 17:05

very similar to electricity and because it's a general purpose technology, the odds of it proliferating into all aspects of our life is very high. So I think that's why this is such a big game changer compared to all the previous AI inventions. See, ai has been around for a while, right, andrew? But when you look at all the previous breakthroughs in artificial intelligence, it was more narrow right, where AI was only suitable for one application that has been developed. The big breakthrough with generative AI is that, for the first time, you're seeing artificial intelligence that can be deployed across multiple applications, which is also why they're saying that it is the first glimpse of AGI, right? The whole holy grail of AI is artificial general intelligence, but I don't think we're there yet, right? However, it is showing the early proof that it could be a general purpose technology. So, yes, it will proliferate. Compared to all other AI breakthroughs in the past, this one we're going to see a lot more everywhere we go.

Speaker 2: 18:21

On Tuesday they had the Worldwide Developer Conference keynote and unveiled what had been leaked weeks before that Apple were going to integrate a deeper level of AI within their devices and also have a partnership with OpenAI for ChatGPT. I have some reflection, in fact. I was thrilled. On Wednesday afternoon the BBC called me and said could was thrilled on Wednesday afternoon the BBC called me and said could you appear on the show tonight, live to talk about the announcement. So I managed to get a short hit on BBC. Your initial view of that.

Speaker 3: 18:48

I was thrilled to see the announcement.

Speaker 3: 18:51

I'm so happy to see Apple in the AI game Because one of the things Apple does so well is Apple knows how to make a technology accessible to the consumer. They do that so well and they pay such close attention to user experience that I'm quite excited to experience Apple's way of bringing AI to the market, to the market right. And actually, you know, on that broader topic, andrew, of AI coming into our everyday lives, if you know, microsoft also has released Copilot plus PC, right, they made the announcement and I think you're going to see a lot more of this. You're going to see a lot more of integration of artificial intelligence into computers, into your mobile phone everywhere, into computers, into your mobile phone everywhere, and I think that's going to be our first usage of mainstream AI in our everyday life.

Speaker 3: 19:46

The agents, the co-pilots, they're all going to become a part of our everyday life and the way it's going to happen is through the devices we use every day, whether it's the mobile phone or the tablet or the PC, whatever those are right. So not surprised that Apple made the announcement, whatever those are right. So not surprised that Apple made the announcement, and I'm really glad they did, and I think, in general, people should look out for Microsoft, apple, google, all the top providers, right? Amazon I'm sure you're going to see another version of Alexa pretty soon, right? So all of these, I think, are going to play a pretty critical role in making us more AI friendly.

Speaker 2: 20:24

Well, I've been talking about the promise of AI assistants, or AI agents, for a long time and I've been waiting for all the pieces to slowly come together and I think on Tuesday night we got a lot closer to seeing that and I'll give you my reflections on why. So, the things that are going to be baked in actually iOS 18, I've now got the developer version on my phone and my tablet, so I've actually seen it, but the AI stuff hasn't been enabled yet. That's coming. I think someone suggested beta three for developers. It might come in, so I can't play with it yet, so I'm relying on what they've said.

Speaker 2: 20:56

But the sort of things that are built in voice transcription I use Otter for that. Correcting documents I use Grammarly for that. Looking at when my flights are due I use TripIt for that. So what's going to happen is all these multiple apps that I've had to log in and give my information away and are not connected. I'm now going to give permission and I have to trust Apple is not going to misuse that. But it's going to come down to the one area.

Speaker 2: 21:22

And if I look at my own little research I do every time I do a keynote I did one on Wednesday. I get everyone to stand up and I say, oh, stand up if you use chat GPT, and most people stand up. I then say, stay standing if you use it every day, and most people sit down. Now I thought, is this just because of the audience I was talking to? I've done this from Cayman Island to Luxembourg and I get the same response every time, and about three weeks ago, Reuters Institute of Journalism and Oxford University released a survey for about 14,000 people from six different countries, and the US has the highest daily use of generative AI, at around 6% to 8%. Where I am in the UK, 2% to 5%. So my very unscientific survey was right and this is why I think this is a game changer.

Speaker 2: 22:09

People haven't worked out how to use these tools in their daily life because they have to have a purpose to do that, I think, whether it's Apple or Google or Amazon, and you bake it into something you're using every day, that's in your hand and knows everything about you, I'm with you.

Speaker 2: 22:24

I think this is a watershed moment, because the average consumer actually won't know that they're using AI for these things. I tell my audience at the moment if you unlock your phone, you're using AI. But if you're able to and I think one of the presenters on Tuesday did this they said do I need to book a car now to pick up mum from the airport? There's no context there, because the phone knew that mum had sent an email and the flight number was there and it was being tracked through some application. So I think what we're going to see is that AI is going to be baked in AI inside, no matter what device you use, and consumers start taking it for granted, which I think is great, because then the friction is removed and then everyone will be standing up saying I use AI every day, and I know that I use AI every day.

Speaker 3: 23:05

No, andrew, I think you're spot on. I'm 100% aligned with you on this. I do think that number one like you said once, it's in all the devices. People are going to start using it a lot more. But I also think that the OEMs whether it's Microsoft or Apple or any of the OEMs I think that they need to educate consumers on the different use cases.

Speaker 3: 23:31

I've always seen that people to some degree, people need to be told how to use something, right. You just can't deploy the technology and say, hey, figure it out yourself, you got to show people. There are some. We call them the early adopters. Andrew, you were telling me in our last podcast that you took a picture of your hotel room and you were working with it on chat, gpt, right, I can tell you that that's like one percentile of the population. If consumers are educated on where you can use it, how you can use it, people will jump onto it, right? And then two things one, educate and then give them access. I think access is coming by integrating it within all the devices. Next thing would be education show a bunch of use cases and, man, this will take off.

Speaker 2: 24:18

Now, just looking at the podcast and season one, you've had a variety of really interesting guests. Was there something that really surprised you about something that the guests told you?

Speaker 3: 24:26

Oh, almost every episode there was something that came out that was super surprising, right Almost every episode, and I think to some degree. I want to say that it's our methodology which helps that, where we unpack things from first principles. So let me give you an example. We were doing an episode on AI strategy with a professor from UC Berkeley His name is Greg LeBlanc, and it was one of the early episodes we did. So when we were doing that episode and we were unpacking with him, we came to the realization that, while a lot of customers are talking about AI strategy, what they first need is a data strategy. That's the foundation, because trying to deploy AI in a company where you don't have any good access to data is like buying a gasoline car with no access to gasoline. What are you going to do with that car? Are you going to push it?

Speaker 3: 25:32

So every company that is looking to develop a really meaningful AI strategy first needs to ask itself what data do I have access to, right? Whether it's for the AI to process or for you yourself to build AI, what data do you have access to? So even the most simplest use cases, right? Simplest use cases in human resources, marketing, finance, all of it at some point. If you have to scale the AI and if you have to make it tangible for your organization, you have to be able to give it access to your data right within the organization. And if your data is not curated, if it's not in a format that's easily accessible, then the use cases are still going to be surface level or not scalably meaningful. So I think that kind of insight right we've had almost in every episode and in every episode I guess this surprised me In everything from hallucinations to grounding, to AI usage, to how to go into production with AI right. A lot of people use cases are important, but we learned that 85% of AI today is not successful because the failures are in production, not in the coming up with use cases.

Speaker 3: 26:45

So, like this, you learn in every episode and so it's been amazing. So I want to say every episode has given us something new.

Speaker 2: 26:51

I'm glad you mentioned data, because I've been on about data quality for years, well before AI was on the agenda, and everyone's now saying we need to do an AI project and I kind of because I'm independent I go, I go oh, hang on, hang on, here's some things you need to think about. And I actually I look at the data question. I ask them three things what's the data you have, what's the data you need and what's the data you want? And you can see them thinking and scratching. I've actually run workshop. We've actually worked out what they and then was like you mean, we have to get our data in order before we can possibly train an AI system, you bet. So data is always the deciding factor and sometimes it really has been a mind shift for clients to say we probably can't do a project yet because our data is everywhere and we don't know what we want or have what we have.

Speaker 3: 27:36

Paying very close attention to your data strategy is extremely critical today, and also making sure that your data is not in silos, right Like as AI gets more and more integrated. If you want AI to work across your organization, the data silos in your organization also have to be broken up, so it's not just access to data, but also rethinking how data is structured within your organization. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done in this front and I don't think companies have done the work yet. So I think, a lot of work up ahead.

Speaker 2: 28:09

So when you interviewed me on your Unpacked podcast, what we unpacked was the notion that I talk about of being digitally curious, so I might throw it back to you how would you define being digitally curious and how do you encourage others to stay digitally curious?

Speaker 3: 28:22

I think, andrew, by staying digitally curious, you reframe your mind from uncertainty and fear to wonder, right? If you're curious, you wonder about the potential of this technology and the first thing it does for you is it reframed your mind where you're not fearful of it anymore, but you're curious about it, right? The second thing it does for you is it, to some degree, curiosity hopefully kills all the biases right. Even today, when I talk to people and I'm like what can we do with AI in this team or in this use case, immediately all the legacy biases come up right Like oh, this problem is going to occur, that problem is going to occur, we can't use it. You know AI shouldn't be used a particular way. Even within our think tank there's some debate right now on whether AI should be used as a co-pilot in our own thinking. But if you're curious, I think you dispel all those myths and you start thinking about hey, what can I actually do with this technology that has come out, rather than think about past legacy bias? And so I think, first, dispels fear. Second is curiosity allows you to remove all biases, right. And third is it gives you the permission to fail. You know, when you're curious, you can go in looking to explore something without worrying about the outcome, right, and that is so liberating, right? So liberating, it's okay, man. Okay, I'm curious about something. I want to apply it. You know, do a quick pilot test it, right. And as long as it's not what they call a one-way door and you know, I think Jeff Bezos says that there aren't many one-way doors, most of it are two-way doors you can come back and change your decision, right. So for me, that's what curiosity is about. It's about helping in all these ways.

Speaker 3: 30:20

And the fourth thing for me, curiosity is about is what you brought out for me in your podcast. It was so refreshing to hear your approach, where curiosity is about, along with the mindset, applying it and learning about it. Right, what are you doing today with the technology? That's what curiosity is about, and I love that, and I hope people listen to our podcast with Andrew, because he talks about curiosity not just being a mindset, but you talk about it being a habit, about how you use it, and I thought that was super refreshing. So that's my fourth. Now, my fourth definition of curiosity is what you brought to us.

Speaker 2: 31:01

Well, when people listen to the podcast which I know they will, because it was you asked some fantastic questions. I shared with you the six things I asked my audience at the beginning of my keynotes and you said I'm a five out of six. So I've got to ask you are you a six now?

Speaker 3: 31:15

I'm not a full six yet, but all I've got to tell you is I've started exploring. I've started exploring digital currency.

Speaker 2: 31:22

Fantastic, you're curious. I don't even care, you haven't done it, you've actually. That warms my heart because, yeah, thank you.

Speaker 3: 31:33

I sent a note. My cousin has invested in cryptocurrency, so I have sent a note and, andrew, I think, yeah, if we do another podcast, I'm sure there will be some investment somewhere in cryptocurrency.

Speaker 2: 31:44

With all my audiences. I'm so thrilled. The same thing happened on Wednesday, having lunch after my talk, and I was bombarded with questions and I could feel that I'd injected energy and permission for them to try new things. And gosh, that's why I do what I do. I want to change people's mindsets.

Speaker 3: 32:02

I want to tell you one more thing I did with my team. I sent a note to my team asking them what they are doing in their everyday life to action their careers right in this direction. So it's now a movement, not just for me but my team also.

Speaker 2: 32:19

WePRO is a huge consulting company. You are one of the leaders in the space. Maybe you could give us some predictions about the future of IT consulting and whether AI will help or hinder the industry.

Speaker 3: 32:33

So I think AI is going to have a huge impact, andrew, and, like you said, I like the word you used enhance. I think that's what's going to happen. I think there's a lot of. There is definitely some fear on if it'll disrupt, but I think it's only going to enhance the consulting industry. I think what will happen is the overall industry pie is going to grow. You're going to have new types of services, new types of needs, like we spoke about data, right, for example, all the organizations that exist today, in order for them to effectively use AI, in order for them to have effective AI strategies, they all need to rethink the data and they have to make the data accessible, break down silos, bring it together, curate it, clean it. So much work needs to be done. Who's going to do all that work, right? So I think there's a huge, tremendous growth up ahead for consulting overall Now, but I do believe the nature of consulting is going to change.

Speaker 3: 33:32

You are going to see consulting where AI and humans are going to be working together right in some form or fashion to help clients. It's not going to be purely human deployed. That, I do believe, will change. You're going to see a lot more AI integrated. But for me it's a positive. It's only a positive and it's an upside, and I'm really excited to see how it's going to evolve and change. And this is not just IT consulting Everything strategy consulting, financial consulting, consulting is a broad, broad industry, and any form of even actually, if you ask me to really broaden this out healthcare, medical field, is also consulting, right. What does a doctor do? You consult a doctor. So, anywhere in any business, in any use case of humanity where a human being is helping another human being think about something or work with something, ai is going to play a role, right. So that's as broad as you can get. So it's not just about IT consulting. Anybody who's doing any form of consulting needs to start thinking about how to use AI.

Speaker 2: 34:41

So AI and the future of work. This is a topic that consumes a lot of my thinking. I'm asked all the time you know, will AI take my job? My one line response is that AI won't take your job. Someone who knows how to use AI will take your job. But I've been thinking more philosophically lately and I've asked the question I'm going to ask you to a number of people. In fact, I asked this question today to a panel at the AI Summit in London, and what I'm about to ask you, I was told, was a statement. So let's see, malcolm Gladwell famously said that you need 10,000 hours of practice and expertise to become an expert. So for young graduates, for people going through school now and entering the workforce, if they're going to be using some of these tools to do some of the work that traditionally was done as part of those 10,000 hours, what's going to happen to them? How are they going to get their 10,000 hours up? Or is this just not an issue?

Speaker 3: 35:32

That's a deep question, especially because you brought in graduates, not current working professionals, people who are studying. How do they think about it? I'll take some basic examples and we'll see how it applies. I'm going to brainstorm with you a little bit. Right, I don't have a thought through answer yet, or I don't, I haven't formed an opinion on this yet, but let's see if we can form an opinion as we go along, and I'm going to ask you to help me form this opinion.

Speaker 3: 35:55

Calculators came out several decades ago and today students use calculators a lot in their work, but I don't think it's changed their ability to think or function. It's just another tool they've started learning to use. I think AI is very similar today. In today's evolution of AI and generative AI, it is another tool for someone to use, and if you can enhance your learning and maybe the type of processing you need to do in your mind is no more reliant on knowing all the facts right, ai can give you all the facts Today. You can ask AI anything and it'll give you the knowledge right. Ai can give you all the facts Today. You can ask AI anything and it'll give you the knowledge right. It knows way more than anybody knows, and so maybe the way you learn changes, and so I think it's really important for education systems to start looking at how students can use AI from grade one, because the way you learn will change and unfortunately, education the teachers and the learning system itself needs to figure this out as you go along. It's like you are building the plane as it's taking off the runway. You don't have the time to sit in the shed and build a plane and take it off right, so the education system and students have to come together to figure out how to use AI. And definitely students who graduate in 5-10 years from now, the skills they need and the way they need to think and what they have to do is going to be different. It's difficult to forecast it sitting here today, also because AI itself is going to change.

Speaker 3: 37:37

I spoke about the current state of AI. Right, if AI gets more and more intelligent, then what is the role of a human versus an AI in the workforce? Nobody can predict that today. It's very difficult to predict it, because the reason it's very difficult also to predict it is because, as humans, what we do is that, if you think about it, we don't discriminate who's doing the work for us.

Speaker 3: 38:06

If someone is doing work for us, if the person is a human being versus AI, if the work quality is the same as a human being, you're not going to discriminate who's doing the work. As long as someone's doing the work for you, you don't care. And so that's where I think most of the disruption will start to happen. Humans, who are consumers, are going to start using AI for their jobs, and that's how jobs will get displaced. It's not because companies are putting AI for their jobs, and that's how jobs will get displaced. It's not because companies are putting AI in the place. It's because humans are going to prefer the AI right. So it's difficult it's really difficult to forecast it. But to the broader point, I think that schools, universities and students have to learn how to use the technology and adapt with it.

Speaker 2: 38:51

Starting today, we're running out of time, so I'm not going to give you my answer about education. I think there's a whole other podcast about how to fix education and I have a couple of thoughts, and I think what we will do is we'll hold it over, we'll keep people dangling. But just on something you said at the AI conference today, we had someone talking about music and it was a very similar theme. Would you mind if the music was created by a human or an AI? And it doesn't really matter. So I think that, gosh, we need to have a further discussion. We're never going to put it into this one. I'm going to ask you my final question before we go to quickfire and I think we will pause the other stuff for another podcast, either yours or mine what have you got in store for season two of your Unpacked?

Speaker 3: 39:28

podcast. I'm super excited. I think there's so many important things to unpack in season two. The first thing that we need to unpack is who is going to make money with AI and how are they going to make money? Right Super important question how do you monetize? Ai is going to be a huge topic and it's going to be a very relevant topic because businesses are starting to look at use cases. But the next question is how do you make money? This is what your investors are going to ask. So that's the first thing we're going to unpack. The second thing we're going to unpack in season two is generative AI business ecosystems.

Speaker 3: 40:04

I strongly believe that to be successful in AI, you have to work as an ecosystem. You can't do everything on your own as a company, and so how do you work in this new world of ecosystems? What type of ecosystems are available for you if you're building AI products? I think that's the second thing we'll unpack, and the third one I definitely think we're going to unpack is the continuing world of regulations and responsible AI. I think, world of regulations and responsible AI. I think, Andrew, the first major lawsuits or AI issues have not happened yet, right? But the minute that happens, the world of regulations, everything you know always happens right the minute you have the first major lawsuit or the first major challenge. That's when everybody wakes up, and so I think there's going to be a lot of discussions on responsible ai. I I don't see that going away because it's a problem unsolved, and so season two, we're going to tackle those three aspects too. So, yeah, super excited about season two.

Speaker 2: 41:06

Can't wait for season two. Okay, it's time for the quickfire round. I'm going to run you through a whole bunch of questions and you're going to ask them as quickly as you can. Your biggest hope for this year and next that people get educated on AI. I wish AI could do all of my Content writing the app you use most on your phone YouTube. The best advice you've ever received.

Speaker 3: 41:23

If you're faced with a tough situation, think about what your oldest self will advise you and do it. What are you reading?

Speaker 2: 41:31

at the moment A Thousand Brains. Who should I invite next onto the podcast?

Speaker 3: 41:35

Gregory LeBlanc, uc Berkeley professor. He has a podcast called Unsiloed, not Unpacked, and he would be the most fascinating guest for you to have on your podcast. Next, how do you want to be remembered as someone who touched a lot of lives in a very positive manner?

Speaker 2: 41:53

So, avinash, this is the Digitally Curious podcast. What three things should our audience do today to be more curious about generative AI?

Speaker 3: 42:01

The first, one is make sure you spend 10 minutes on chat GPT every day, trying something new, and there are thousands of ideas on the internet. If you don't have ideas on what you can do with it, go read up, right. There's thousands of ideas on the internet. Give it a shot. Spend 10 minutes. And when I say chat GPT, what I mean is any form of AI-based product, right? Whether it's chat GPT, davinci Lama, it doesn't matter Google. Spend 10 minutes with generative AI every day, right?

Speaker 3: 42:43

The second thing is do a little brainstorming with yourself and genuinely answer the question of what parts of your job possibly could AI do in a year or two. That's the second way, second most important thing for you to do, because you need to be prepared for what's coming, and you'd rather be prepared and evolve right? And I want to say the third thing is just have fun, right. Like you said, andrew, be curious, have fun, read up on something AI. It's okay to have some fun, right? So, excuse me, read up on something AI related, have some fun and look at the fun sides of the tool, right. Draw with it, paint with it, do something with it and music. Have some fun with it, right, have some fun with it.

Speaker 2: 43:26

What a fascinating discussion. We could talk all night. We can't. I think there are a whole lot of things for multiple podcasts in the future. I do hope we get to speak again, but, more importantly, how can we find out more about you and your work If you want to learn more about our podcast, go to our Think Tank website, lab45thinktankcom.

Speaker 3: 43:46

You'll learn a lot about our podcast. You'll also learn about Think Tank and what we do. And if you want to know a lot about Lab 45, go to lab45.com. You'll learn about Think Tank and what we do. And if you want to know a lot about Lab45, go to lab45.wiprocom. You'll learn about our innovation lab. You'll learn about all the platforms that are coming out. If you're curious about AI, blockchain, if you're curious about remote work, lab45 has some amazing innovations in that space. And, of course, if you're curious about IT consulting as a whole, go down to webprocom and you'll learn more. So yeah, andrew, I'm excited. I'm hoping people tune in and listen more to our podcast.

Speaker 2: 44:21

It's now available on all channels. Thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed it, Thanks.

Speaker 3: 44:26

Andrew, and I wish you the best. It's amazing what you're doing. Keep doing what you're doing.

Speaker 1: 44:31

Thank you for listening to Digitally Curious. Andrew's new book, Digitally Curious your simple guide to navigating the future of AI and beyond, is available to pre-order at digitallycuriousai. Until next time, we invite you to stay digitally curious.